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February 22, 2012
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Bear with me, this is kind of complicated:





A. God is, by definition, illogical.
Therefore B. God can not (and does not) exist.






Wow, mind blowing huh?  It's just so involved and complex.  And it assumes so many premises! (It assumes one premise)  But I assure you, the logic is perfectly valid and irrefutable.


Now, while the logic is perfect and irrefutable, you could possibly argue with the premise (Anybody have a definition of a god that is not illogical?  If you do, then please do share.), but provided A, then B. God can not and does not exist.  If A. is true, B. is true.  If A. is not true, B. may or may not be true.

If you have an alternative definition of a god which isn't illogical, I would:

1. Like to shake your hand.  You are a very rare breed: a logical theist.  I can count on one hand how many I have met.

and:

2. Be happy to have a civil and logical conversation with you on the matter.



Here are some common sayings of theists that provide evidence for A:

"God is, by definition, beyond logic"   What's beyond logic?  Oh, yes!  Illogic.
"God is omnipotent, and immune to logic"  The only things that *need* people to claim they are immune to logic are illogical things.  Omnipotence is not a logically coherent concept (particularly if it contains those things which are illogical).
"God is outside of reality, and so logic does not apply to him"  What's outside of reality?  Oh, right- things that aren't real.
"God created logic, and is not subject to his creation."  The only use of logic is to falsify things that are illogical (separating what is real from what is false).  Did this god create something that doesn't work?  Interesting!  Does this god break the rules that he himself made?  What a dirty cheat!
"Logic is a human invention, it doesn't apply to God."  Logic is a human discovery along with mathematics (one plus one was still two in concept before we had words for those concepts), and it only applies to things that are logical (real things).  If it doesn't apply to a god, that is only because said god is not real.


If you don't understand why logical contradiction is a problem, study logic, and specifically study the principle of explosion (why logic is not tolerant of illogic).


To be fair, here are some (very rarely seen) sayings of theists that provide some evidence against A. (though seemingly outweighed by those in opposition to these claims):

"God can not defy his own nature"  This implies that this god can not be contradictory, which implies that this god might be logical in some way.
"God is perfectly logical and natural"  More overt- I see something like this once in a blue moon.

Logical replies will be appreciated and responded to in so far as I have the time to do so.
Replies that overtly reject logic will be hidden (I will assume such replies to be trolling).


EDIT:  And unfortunately I have to add another condition:  No semantic tomfoolery.
That is, use a dictionary.  No dishonest twisting of definitions to suit your agenda, as demonstrated by "DarkQasim" below in the comments.
Add a Comment:
 
:iconaclockworkkitten:
AClockworkKitten Featured By Owner Nov 21, 2013  Student Digital Artist
I don't buy it, dude.  God can't go against himself.

All you said is "god isn't logical" and not much else.  No explanation or anything.  No examples.  I'm pretty damn unconvinced.
Reply
:iconyaminohikari14:
YaminoHikari14 Featured By Owner Jan 31, 2013
My friend, you argue brilliantly and I love this Journal. There's no way I can argue back because, well, I find myself completely agreeing with it! And knowing me and my teenage knowledge, or Religion, philosophy and ethics I doubt I would stand a chance, though I do enjoy a debate. Again, bravo on this, it is a very good read. :)
Reply
:iconaroniense21:
aroniense21 Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2012
Holy. Bloody. Hell.

I'm obliged to give respect where it's due, and after reading every single comment on this thread and seeing your logical line I'm just appalled, I take my fedora off to you.
However I'm particularly interested in one comment on the first page, when you explained why the models in chemistry are just approximations and how energy and matter are created at random, I would certainly like to know more, if it doesn't bother you of course.

Awaiting your reply for the moment I say goodbye, and thank you for enlightening me at the moment.
Reply
:iconvepurusg:
vepurusg Featured By Owner Jul 29, 2012  Professional General Artist
It has to do with the uncertainty principle.

The easiest (and most entertaining) way to understand it is to read Douglas Adams on his infinite improbability drive in the Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy. It's a fictionalized extrapolation, of course, but it gets the general point across.

Everything is ultimately a matter of quantum probability- even seemingly very improbable things.

Matter is spontaneously created and destroyed constantly due to uncertainty when solved as time vs. energy. They are called vacuum fluctuations.
Reply
:icongarudax:
GarudaX Featured By Owner Jul 4, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Alright, I have another question for you. It regards the paradox of omniscience and free will.

Suppose someone were to argue that Humans have free will and God has foreknowledge of the choices we make. In other words, we have free will and God just happens to know which choices we will make in life, does this solve the paradox? Or is the person who made this argument an idiot?
Reply
:iconvepurusg:
vepurusg Featured By Owner Jul 4, 2012  Professional General Artist
Umm... the person who made that "argument" isn't just an idiot, but a complete idiot. Or possibly trolling you.

It's not an argument at all- it's just an affirmative statement of the paradox, phrased in such a way that it pretends to be a resolution.

It's like this:

"A square circle seems to be a contradiction... :idea: But what if you had a circle, but at the same time it was also a square? That would resolve the contradiction. :nod: "

:doh:


The issue is that the deity knows what you will do before you do it- which means that your actions are either predetermined, or perfectly predictable- in either case, absolute and inflexible.

In the former case, you are only carrying out a script- ostensibly written by the deity upon creation of the universe- and in the latter, all of your actions are likewise the result of mere causality (such as the environmental variables, or your inherent moral nature), none of which remain a free choice.


To put it another way:

You can choose to sin, or not sin.

But the deity already knows which choice you will make before you make it.

How?

Because the deity knows your moral nature, which is the cause of your choice.

So then your choice isn't a choice, but a direct result of your moral nature?

Yes. But you can choose your moral nature.

Oh, that's good to know.

But the deity already knows which moral nature you will choose.

How?

Because it's part of your supermoral nature, of course.

:facepalm:

I hope you can see how that kind of thing goes on infinitely, until either the deity doesn't know, or you finally realize you don't have any free choices.

Or, in most cases, when the person just gives up asking questions and just accepts the illogical dogma as is.
Reply
:icongarudax:
GarudaX Featured By Owner Jul 4, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
In that case, this person is a complete idiot. [link]

"Instead of it necessarily following from GOD's foreknowledge that you must do an action, it necessarily follows from your free will that you do an action, and GOD's foreknew this action. His foreknowledge is separate to your free will."

He makes a long drawn out algebraic responce only to reach that very conclusion I just showed above.

I understand exactly what you mean. The responce is circular and is only delaying the issue. I had a feeling something was fishy with this guy's argument but I just wanted to confirm it with you first. :)
Reply
:iconvepurusg:
vepurusg Featured By Owner Jul 5, 2012  Professional General Artist
Oh, yes. I know of that guy; he is a complete idiot.

He pretends to believe in logic, and then directly contradicts himself and displays complete ignorance of the fundamental principles of logic (whenever something about his god is shown to be illogical, he asserts that his god is beyond logic by being 'outside time' as a defense).
Reply
:icongarudax:
GarudaX Featured By Owner Jul 5, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
lol, I hope he realizes saying God exists outside logic is a dead end for him.

I'm guessing you wasted no time on this guy, because he has repeatedly proven himself to be a fool.
Reply
:iconvepurusg:
vepurusg Featured By Owner Jul 5, 2012  Professional General Artist
I just got him to answer a few questions that proved conclusively that he didn't understand anything about logic, and rejected it in practice.

He's delusional- I don't think he ever will realize that.

I have since blocked him, as he is annoying.
Have a look at his blocking policy- I just treated him the same way he claims to treat others.
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